The results may surprise many as it did myself. Case in point, a 1600lb bull mooseshot 3 times at 50 yards with a .338 magnum. .40 S&W I carry 180 grain HP. Startle affect. I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? to stop the threat. Maybe .22 LR? I can concealed carry and the weight of my Ruger compact 9mm is about as heavy as I want. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). Because size is king? The one thing Ive learned and seen over a lot of shooting is that a 9mm with FMJ bullets is mostly useless. More rounds the better. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. Sorry for the rant. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook, Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. And It will get the job done quite handily. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. Practice while on the move. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Of course there are but in general the .45 with its bigger slower round is the better choice for knockdown power. I sure do love 45acp though. Anyway great comments to all. It did when it came to FMJ bullets. Open carry is fine where Im at. That use the same ammo is the way for me. Riley, love your artical. /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. But to suggest they made the change due to the reasons quoted aboveparticularly because the 9mm supposedly has greater penetration due to less air resistanceis complete hogwash! If we had had 45acp in the hands of the FBI in most every one of these complete inept foul ups they would likely have never happened and the debate would only be Glock or 1911 45 acp. Among other things, this If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. The temporary cavity is the hole in the target that briefly expands after immediate impact, only to collapse a fraction of a second later. The gunman was able to inflict such extensive damage from across a baseball field because he was using a semiautomatic rifle that may have qualified as an assault weapon, akin to a standard infantry combat weapon. Well my neighbor finally bought the pistol from him and turned around and qualified with it in front of the other deputy. In other words, negative acceleration and a non-linear path are both occurring. It was just announced by Smith & Wesson last week that they are out of the running for the contract. It was modified to accept a detachable magazine and equipped with a folding stock. Bob. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? This was not a good CC carry for me so I stoped carring for a while. Lexipol. The debate isnt settled. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. The 9 mm and the round for the 9 mm is by far the cheaper not the better choice! I know they dont keep records like this; but if you could count all the rounds fired in a battle, and how many kills were made by each caliber; would that not be a better indicator of the efficiency of the caliber. And I am surprised that this was not mentioned. The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. But ideally you need a brush rifle. And no I have not tried it with Glock 19 I really dont like Glock it feels weird in my hand and does not perform anywhere close to my Kimber Colt 45 or my Walther Q4. The idea that a bullet has the power to knock an adversary to the ground is a Hollywood myth. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? WebAs shown in Fig. In winter I concealed carry a 1911. WebRock Island Armory 1911 Rock Ultra CS Fiber Optic 45 ACP Sub-Compact 7-Round Pistol $ 679 99 679 dollars 99 cents $ 699 99 699 dollars 99 cents. Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. These are rounds designed to expand upon impact with a soft target. And thats hardly re-enacting a self defense scenario. I Have hair and an angular face. The victim died immediately. (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. .380 9mm .40 10mm or .45 one well placed shot and dead nothing really better about each round besides power and penetration they all kill in skilled hands and do there job in certain situations there is no better round than the one you train with period! Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! Is S&W so inferior that our domestic brand was eliminated? The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. Mr. Involved in a shooting with my partner. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. Not concerned with concealed carry. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. WebSTI Tactical. But I understand the 9 isnt on level with the 45 and know unless a headshot presents itself I will have to dump my mag 7+1 into whoever makes me engage them for a favorable outcome. Sad. round, you can see all three effects. You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to utilize the functionality of this website. D.R. For the sake of interest, some indicators of the penetrative powers of various types of ammunition follow: Virtually all calibres (excepting air weapons) will penetrate the tread or side wall of a motor vehicle tyre. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles that are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI. Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. That aside, its always been my impression with any pistol cartridge, that they dont achieve the velocity necessary for expansion. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. And while its not the final word on wound ballistics, its an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion. I can make a kill shot with just under 1 sec at 60 meters with my .45. When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. We all, sitting safe and pretty, can discuss this and that but we are NOT in their shoes. A pilot was shot and killed by a .45acp in WWII. THE FOWDYFIVE IS THE LORDS CALIBER!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!? (that was actually a thing btw, Im not Damage: 62. The 9mm isnt a garbage round but feeling better with these 230 grain Winchester Rangers loaded on my side. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. Cant get into why I know this but but Im retired from the Government. To make a long govt document short, the armor would likely stop a 9mm with a few bruises. When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. Maybe if you were trying to make 100+ yard shot thatd make a little difference. Then you missed. Very accurate and deadly, The bullet travels at 1450 FPS. If youve ever spent anytime shooting steel then you would know which one will take someone off their feet quicker. I dont plan on using a handgun for long distance shooting. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The FBI just did the same thing. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. It stood there looking at me. Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. That much is true. I am not aware of any hollowpoints that were designed to expand on the way to the target. Gimme a break! I spend a great deal of time on the range. Shot placement?! Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. 45 muzzle velocity is 500 feet per second and the 9mil is 1500 fps. And the department is no small one. 12 shots fired. All three shots vital to heart and lungs. Glocks are cheap, reliable, and have built a big following. Thats my two cents for what its worth. WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the The comments concerning shot placement are correct. (As my Sr. DI liked to say Two in the chest, and one in the head, then youre pretty damned sure that the bastard is dead.. 10 Best ways to Make Money on Social Media and not waste time. Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. Just carry what YOU feel most comfortable with and shoot the best with as shot placement is most important. One of the reasons for the 45 why soldiers love the 45 has to do with the bullet itself tumbling once it hits flesh. Ive shot both calibers at humans as a soldier and as a LEO and 9mm just doesnt get the same results as 45 in the same number of shots. If I put p++ in my 9 mm, its going to hurt like hell! As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. The programs, policies, and people driving positive change in Americas gun violence problem. Possible off hand 200. At least to the U.S. Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC), there is no longer a question. The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. In this article, we will present what we believe to be the most credible information regarding wound ballistics from studies conducted by the FBIs Firearms Training Academy in legendary Quantico, Virginia. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. I served in the USMC and in combat. The general plan of attack for officers is to use some weapon other than a handgun. I have a Glock19 and Glock23 chambered .40S&W and that is a great round to. Even minor and common factors can significantly impact the wounding ability of a round, including damage to a hollow point through contact with any intervening material, from glass to bone. You may as well go off and say Ill just take a Judge and shoot .410 buckshot, or .45 long colt if you are trying to inflict the most damage. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son, We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Indeed, if 9mm used the same grain of bullet, the ft/lb and velocities are near-identical. You will find that when tested in this manner the 45acp will out perform the 9mm hands down. We have much better tools now. career to carry a Glock 9mm. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. The last time such a broad survey of gun ownership in America was done, long arms ruled the day and Americans were largely interested in weapons for hunting and other sporting uses. Riley, love your artical. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. The money has to come from somewhere. Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as knock-down power. The only thing that can knock a target down is physiological incapacitation or psychological stress. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. Bottom line, if you come at me and I shoot you with my 9 mm or my 45, or my 380, its going to hurt like hell! In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. A century? If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. Not to suggest that a skilled shooter (and/or soldier or Marine) couldnt shoot it, but almost anybody is going to be faster with a 9mm in their hands. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. Penetration, velocity, expansion, its all there. very obvious. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. And speed causes expansion of bullets in a meat target. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. A little back ground, for almost 17 years that I carried a badge I carried a S&W 6 357 on a K frame as my service carry. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. Multiple hits are extraordinarily unlikely. Lee reloading gear. It has been reported by Heritage about how there are a number of personal protection gun uses that make the news in any given month, but are given a tiny fraction of the attention that mass shooters and other violent gun criminals receive. Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. The story makes that even sound too few. Ive hunted with both 9 and 45. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. Lexipol. We need to dial back our expectations of what a pistol cartridge can and cant do as an instrument of CQB. In the woods my .45 r1 with cast is what I carry. The pistol with speed loaders will get me to the riffels then game over if not over yet. I would easily give credit to the Colt 45 on reliability accuracy and range, my 9mm all it really does better is shoot faster because it has a 4 lb. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. These are the only two factors you can expect to remain constant in any situation. The paramedics said he probably would not live. While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. Ask the Mafia. One of the techniques used by several mob hit men was to use a .22 caliber pistol placed in the soft spot behind and slightly belo With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes., What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. Still, the research is not widespread and a great deal of it is not terribly relevant for the average person searching for a reliable self-defense weapon. I am a classic ). Another, was a 300lb black bear. Ammunition can really change performance. How about some scientific caliber comparisons with the same type bullet and velocity range and most common weights. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. How about a discussion of American made vs foreign made weapons for our military? After decades of witnessing the 45 vs 9 mm battle. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. In 1985, the US military replaced the .45 ACP with the 9mm round for its standard sidearm. Police, f.b.i., military have smaller people with smaller hands that need to be accomadated. I was a PA-C in the military. The test results disclosed that the .45 round displaced an average of 4.22 cubic inches of tissue, the 10mm round 4.11 cubic inches and the 9mm round 2.82 cubic inches. Look for a box or option labeled Home Page (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari) or On Startup (Chrome). I trap and shoot most animals with a Browning 1911-22 now. And I can certainly understand WHY you would be led to thinking that switching to the Glock 21 would improve your chances of getting a stop. Without fragmentation, temporary cavity wounds can be relatively minor. What I find more often than not is, in cases of 9mm shootings, unless its a head-shot or perfectly placed shot to the sternum, victims rarely drop where theyre shot and are often found blocks away from where the original shooting took place police actually have to trace blood droppings back to their origin to find the initial crime scene. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. The only reason law enforcement and, military use a 9mm is budget. I never miss. The primary result of permanent cavity damage is profuse bleeding. Police1 is revolutionizing the way the law enforcement community I am sorry for your incounter. Any weapon is only as good as its owner, making the person behind the trigger the single greatest factor in how much stopping power a gun ultimately yields. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. If an operator like a .45 go for it. The Krag was a failure for two reasons. Yes, yeas I have. In their book, Defense of Self and Others, FBI firearms training experts John Hall and Urey Patrick (ret. When the weather is colder and requires a jacket or coat, I carry my Glock 30s, extra mag for either. Because capacity equals TIME. 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. Sadly, most government decisions like this are primarily based on cost effectiveness, not cartridge performance or effectiveness; thats the main reason I quit using military or LE decisions as a factor in my own carry decisions. You may be knocked down and have to squeeze off a once and last shot to save you life. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it hits its target with more energy. It depends where they get hit. My father was hit in the arm with a .50 bmg round during the Falklands war and it took his arm off from below the el Watch the .22 and the .223 tested on blocks of ballistics gelatin, a material that mimics human tissue. You prefer the .45 for stopping power? Its not our opinion that makes us right. They ability to kill. G19 vs custom 1911 equals a big price difference. WebA 9mm -40 - 357sig -45 ACP all do about 11-13" penetration into the human body no temporary wound cavity, and the diamiter differnce is from 9mm(.355(.357 caliber)) to 11.5mm(.45 caliber). WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive too powerful??? The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. Think the title of this article is misleading. Affiliate Disclosure-Terms of Use-Privacy Policy - Returns & Refunds - Shipping & Delivery - Affiliates, This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer. That alone could be a convincing argument to switch platforms. Japanese quail chicks in a studythe results A 5 psi blast overpressure will rupture eardrums in about 1% of subjects, and a 45 psi overpressure will cause eardrum rupture in about 99% of all subjects. you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit.